Episode 73: Sal Ferrarello

Hallway Chats: Episode 73 - Sal Ferrarello

Introducing Sal Ferrarello

Sal is a WordPress developer who has contributed to WordPress core, Genesis, and is the author of the Bootstrap Genesis Theme. Along with his volunteer work in WordPress community, Sal has spoken on variety of topics at many WordCamps.

Show Notes

Website | Sal Ferrarello
Twitter | @SalCode

Episode Transcript

Tara: This is Hallway Chats, where we meet people who use WordPress.

Liam: We ask questions, and our guests share their stories, ideas and perspectives.

Tara: And now the conversation begins. This is Episode 73.

Liam: Welcome to Hallway Chats. I’m Liam Dempsey.

Tara: And I’m Tara Claeys. Today, we’re joined by Sal Ferrarello. Sal is a WordPress developer who has contributed to WordPress core, Genesis, and is the author of the Bootstrap Genesis Theme. Along with his volunteer work in WordPress community, Sal has spoken on variety of topics at many WordCamps. Welcome, Sal. Glad to have you here today.

Sal: I’m happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Liam: You’re most welcome, Sal. Speaking of speaking at WordCamps, we’re at a WordCamp this weekend, we’re at WordCamp Philly. We’re all gathered around the same microphone in person which is a lovely treat for us. But with that, tell us a little bit more about yourself?

Sal: I am a WordPress developer. I live in Reading, PA with my wife and my two boys. Reading appears on the Monopoly board, though it is often mispronounced as the Reading Railroad, but we are the Reading Railroad. Now when you play Monopoly, I hope you’ll pronounce the railroad correctly.

Tara: I’ve always pronounced it Reading, somehow I knew that.

Sal: You’re ahead of the curve, Tara.

Liam: So when we’re reading it on the board, we should be reading Reading?

Sal: That’s true.

Liam: But if we’ve already done it, would we have read Reading?

Sal: Nope, it will always be but it does get confusing.

Liam: Thank you for clarifying.

Tara: So we’re here at WordCamp Philly. Why don’t we start by sharing what you talked about here this weekend?

Sal: This weekend, I got to do a talk on an introduction to post meta. Post meta being the extra fields in WordPress where you store data.

Tara: Have you spoken on that before?

Sal: I did. I presented that topic very similarly last year at WordCamp DC. It’s a neat talk I really enjoy sharing with developers because when you first get into it, it’s not always intuitive, the way the information is stored there. Once you get past it, then it’s powerful and used a lot.

Tara: Great.

Liam: In a simple way, talk about the type of data that might be stored on post meta. How would that work out? I know we’re not a tech show so we don’t want to get into the ins and outs but what’s a pretty simple use case?

Sal: Sure. A setback, I think the term is actually a little confusing and it always has been for me. Because when I hear post meta, my brain automatically goes to post as in after, like post-apocalyptic being after the apocalypse. But when we talk about post meta, we’re talking about post as in blog post or WordPress post. Then meta information is information about something. Met information about me would be my height, my age. The idea is that you have this information about posts, that it gets stored somewhere. Where that comes up a lot is with different plugins. For example, if you’re running an SEO plugin and you add in additional information, a meta description there. That would get stored in post meta. Often times, if you had add-ons that bring something extra to post, maybe a field that wasn’t there previously, something like that.

Tara: Yeah, I’ve been learning about SEO and it comes up a lot there. I’ve got a better understanding of what meta does by studying SEO and how Google reads the code in the page. It’s an important thing to understand, not just from a development structure of the website but also from a marketing standpoint, too, that’s important, right?

Sal: Right. In that case, you’ve got the meta information that’s being output. We were really talking about in my talk sort of how WordPress stores that information behind the scenes, which in many cases is then used to output meta information on the back-end, so there’s kind of two different metas going on there.

Tara: Cool. That’s the depth of our tech for today. Let’s back up and talk about how you got started in WordPress and in development?

Sal: I always loved programming. When I was a child, we got a Commodore 64 and I used to write some basic programs on that. And then I kind of stalled on that for a while. It was something fun that I had done. When I was in junior high, I had a good friend who needed help generating bunch of– it was generating website markup for one of his family sites. And it was very repetitive and he wanted some help doing that. And at that point, QBasic was a basic program language on the PC and I ended up diving into that and helping him crank that out. That became a real love, something I really had a lot of fun doing. So I’d spend a lot of time programming that. When I went to college, I actually majored in computer science and then when I got out, I sort of found the web and started playing around with it. I took kind of a roundabout path, but when I got back into programming again, I got a job at a local agency helping them build websites. Initially, they were not doing WordPress but the developer I was working under eventually moved us to WordPress and things really took off from there. I’d say that’s when things really locked in and really started working well. I felt good about what we were doing and kind of been running with it ever since.

Tara: I know you’re active in the WordPress community. Tell us a little bit about when that started and how you got started with the community?

Sal: Absolutely. I’d say I really got in deepest with the community in about 2014, which is when I left the agency job that I had and I started my own company. I do development under the name Ironcode Studio. At that time, I really wanted to look at marketing myself more and I felt that getting involved with the community and putting out content to help people was a great way to market myself, and learn, and better myself, and help others who were doing the same kind of thing. It’s been this great cycle for me. I feel it’s really helped drive a lot of my business in what I’m doing, but at the same time, it’s something that’s so rewarding for me, working with other people, and it really drives me to make myself better at the same time. It’s kind of a win all around.

Liam: That’s a really interesting perspective and I think it’s one that a lot of us who have been in the WordPress community consider to go back and forth on and kind of debate. The balance between giving to the community for this community’s sake, but also reaping some kind of reward on it. Talk to me about how you maintain your own mental perspective? What’s your philosophy on that and how do you walk the balance between giving in a way that you find rewarding as giving versus marketing, which ultimately tries to lead towards some kind of your ability to pay your rent and mortgage, and food bills, and all that?

Sal: Absolutely. I think that I probably don’t think about the marketing aspect as much as I should. A lot of it is personal gratification probably in almost a selfish way. I enjoy doing that. Growing up, I was involved with theater and I enjoyed being on stage and performing. Speaking at a WordCamp for me scratches an itch of being up there and presenting. There’s a lot of that behind it when I’m doing it. But along with that, there’s this added benefit of I get to help people. And from a marketing standpoint, it does help me. I think I’m very fortunate that I’m doing things I enjoy that happen to market me well rather than really focusing on and saying, “Hey, I’m going to market me.” At some point, I may have to get smarter about that, but–

Tara: It’s working for you.

Sal: So far, so good.

Tara: Yeah. That’s a good way for us to talk about success, which is one of our favorite things to talk about as it turns out, and how you define success. That may segue into that a little bit because it sounds like you are achieving– we talk about the societal view of success being money, and rich, and fame, being rich and famous. We never had anybody define it that way really but certainly, being able to pay your bills is part of being successful. But it sounds like you’re merging that with something that you like, so I’ll stop talking and you can tell us. [laughs]

Sal: No, it’s a great question and I always enjoy hearing that question from the other guests. It’s interesting. It’s such a big question when I look at it. I find that it’s easier for me– much as in programming, when I’ve got something big, I do much better when I focus on one small piece of it. When I think of success, I like to think about small success. For me, on a small scale, I’d say it’s the lightbulb moment, that understanding, both for myself when I figure something out and it finally clicks, and I say, “Oh, wow. That makes sense now.” But also when I can share that moment with other people. Yesterday, when I presented on the introduction to post meta, there was one particular audience member who I just happened to spot, and this person, I could see on their face this click of, “Oh, post meta makes sense. I see what’s going on with this table.” That’s phenomenal for me. I really love that. It’s interesting to think about why I love that, right? To get introspective there. Why do I love that, and I think I love to be helping other people but I think there’s also this selfish feeling of wizard power where I’m changing the world and I’m affecting your perspective and helping you understand that. That lightbulb moment, I think is a success for me.

Tara: And that’s a good motivation behind teaching and speaking and doing those things. How does that transition into your personal life? You have children I think.

Sal: I do. I’ve got two boys, seven and ten. So it’s fun when you can share something with them and help them get that ‘aha’ moment. Of course, I think that as a father, sometimes I’m a tough person to sell that to them. Parents, or at least my boys are very independent in their thought and don’t always look to me for it. But it’s so much fun to watch them come to their own discoveries. The other day, one of my boys said to me, “The blankets on my bed don’t make me warm. They just hold the warmth in from my body.” Which is such a small thing but he had such joy in telling me that and I love that. I love that idea that we’re thinking about things and understanding more.

Tara: That’s a great thing that you remarked on. I hope you write that down or something because kids say those little magical things sometimes and they grow up so quickly that it’s fleeting but it’s great for you as a parent to notice those little lighbulb moments in your kids and to make note of them. Are either of your boys interested in tech, do you think? Are they too young to do that?

Sal: We really try and dial back our boys. We do 30 minutes of screen time a day. There’s a balance there with technology and how much we’re doing it. We try and get them thinking about technology and doing things without actually getting them on technology as much. There was a great game that we played with them called Robot Turtles, and Robot Turtles is kind of board game programming. You set up the pieces and then they have to create a program for it to run to get the goal that they want. That’s been a really neat thing in giving our boys a chance to get this programming idea. We play lots of other games, too, that go along with those kind of ideas. I’m hoping that we’re setting the foundation. I think it’s also tricky because of the dad factor. Dad does all this computer stuff. Clearly, that’s not cool. [laughs]

Tara: Yeah. I’ve talked to a lot of people who have that. They think their children would be super interested in it because their parents do it and it’s the opposite. Yeah. I think also, I had a conversation with someone yesterday about their children’s interest in games and Fortnite is the big game, apparently. And that kids think–

Liam: Fortnite is awesome.

Tara: [laughs] You’ll need to dance for me at some point.

Liam: [laughs] I have practiced it.

Tara: There are multiple. But the translation of kids who like to play games but are not interested in tech or who think that they want to go into computer science because they think that it’s games and how you direct your children with your experience and their passions in games. I think there’s a hard discovery process for kids these days because they are in front of technology so much that maybe they’re not going to go into technology like your generation, my generation did because it was newer.

Sal: Yeah, it’s interesting. I think that there are a lot of families I think I’ve seen where you have children growing up and they spend so much time with technology. And then we have sort of this assumption that based on this, they’re going to use technology and engage with it, and program, and do these things. It’s like, well, that’s a different jump that you have to make that conscious decision to do. I think, as a society, we could probably do better with introducing students to programming and encouraging them that way. There’s some neat stuff out there now, I think, with games where they’re allowing children to use programming to interact with the games and to extend them. I think there’s a big opportunity there. Hopefully, one day, my boys will do that.

Liam: Yeah, it raises a really interesting issue because I have no data, but just thinking about this, that our children growing up, there always was a screen in front of them. They didn’t start on Pong, where it was *ding, ding*. They had these amazing graphics and amazing user interfaces. If the program isn’t intuitive, that program doesn’t get the kind of exposure bandwidth, traffic, and usage rates that maybe we dealt with growing up, because we had no other option. You played that game or you used that program because that’s the one that was available. And then the disconnect of, well, if you want to make that game, actually, you open up basically a computer typewriter and type a bunch of words, and numbers, and letters, and characters, and it doesn’t look like a cool video game at all. And the user interface is not some slick button. And then there’s different parts of making all that game but to the conversation around, “I want to make games.” The biggest part of the game is all the code that makes it run really fast. Something like Fortnite where it’s online constantly and it’s always being updated, and it’s gotten millions and millions of users, that’s programming. The graphics are important but they don’t happen if the code isn’t there. I wonder about it, love to keep an eye on that.

Tara: Sure.

Liam: We’re getting into the meta of education.

Sal: I think there’s an opportunity though, that I think parallels WordPress. When I look at WordPress, I see lots of people who have a WordPress site. And then they want to do that little bit extra, they want to tweak it, they want to add that plugin. And I think we’re seeing more games now that have sort of that ability that you can interact with them with code and maybe create your own plugin. Hopefully, that can work as a same gateway that I feel like we see so many WordPress programmers take.

Liam: Yeah, I think that’s true. Fortnite doesn’t have that yet and we’re just using it so I’m staying there. But the ability that it’s not just a shooter game, it’s a shooter game where you have to use building skills as well. And kind of the real-time interaction of building and– It’s not just get across the bridge, it’s, do I get across the bridge or do I make a decision to build a little fort and hide in the fort and shoot or jump or make myself a wall so that I can run to the bridge? That’s what I like about it as a video game, it’s not necessarily the great graphics. At some point, great graphics are a dime a dozen these days. But it’s the interaction and yeah, it’s cool. Anyway, I’m getting us totally sidetracked.

Tara: No. I think it’s hard to separate, too, the fun use of technology versus the work of it. For me, it’s fun for me to build websites. I don’t need to play games on my computer.

Liam: Speaking of fun, and work, and games, and enjoying things, Sal, tell us a little bit about your business, your practice. You said you’re a developer, you work for yourself, what does that mean, what does that look like Monday through Friday?

Sal: I work out of my home office. I’m the only member of my company and I have clients all over the place, and almost exclusively, my interaction with them is online. Even mostly text rather than phone calls. I tend to try and steer my clients that way because I find it helps keep us focused and moving.

Liam: You’re just being written versus– they’re not paying your phone, right?

Sal: Right, yes. Usually, we’ve got– [laughter]

Liam: Emails, ticket notices, and that kind of thing?

Sal: Yes. Most of the time, I try and steer them into some kind of issue tracker which gives us that history that we work off of. That’s where we interact the most. Sometimes Slack or something like that.

Tara: Are you mostly working with agencies that know how to use those tools or your clients are one-off? Are they small businesses or a combined combination?

Sal: It’s kind of an interesting mix right now. I’ve got some larger businesses. Overall, I’d say I work with pretty tech-savvy clients. Usually, if you’re not comfortable sort of running your own WordPress site already, then I’m not the best person to help you along with that traditionally. It’s usually when you have a deeper need. It’s kind of like, “I’d like you to do this. I sort of have some idea about this, but I really need some help executing.” Often that’s something like an agency or something like that. But sometimes, it’s individual users who are maintaining sites. I’ve got a couple of schools that I help out where they are doing that. So they pull me in for a little work here and there. A lot of different kind of tracked things.

Tara: How was the transition for you to working for yourself?

Sal: It was an interesting transition. I was very fortunate. The agency I was at, I was lead developer and I had number of developers underneath me. When I told them I was leaving, I offered to come back part-time on a contract basis. And they took me up on that for a little while, which was nice because I had that sort of fixed work set there. And at the same time, I could start growing my other clients. It made for a really nice transition.

Liam: And how long did that last? Was that three months, six months, was it a year?

Sal: That was probably about six months, I’d say.

Liam: Yeah, nice little mix. Your cash flow immediate needs a little easier, and it gave them the assurity of all the intellectual knowledge and leadership hasn’t just left the building, it’s going to come back two days a week or something, and we can transition to the new team to make sure that they know.

Sal: Right. It was nice having that runway and helping the other developers grow into that role that they were taking on.

Liam: Yeah. One of the questions that we dig into is advice, and not so much advice that we want to give, but advice that we’ve been giving or received, or come across, and successfully implemented in our lives. With that, what has been the most valuable piece of advice that you’ve ever received and implemented?

Sal: I think the most powerful piece of advice I’ve gotten is that the person who cares the least has the most power. Sometimes, that’s called the principle of least interest and it sounds very Machiavellian when I say it out loud like that. I think it is absolutely a principle that can be abused, certainly in inter-personal relationships and things like that. Where I find it really has value in my life is in business and being able to walk away from a project or some kind of work that’s offered that doesn’t fit me right. I’ve been fortunate that I grew up very cheaply with money. My father is quite stingy with money and I’ve inherited that. But next to him, I look like I’m spending all kinds of money. Anyway, I don’t like to spend a lot of money, I tend to keep my cash flow reserved there, which then works out that I’m more comfortable saying no to projects and letting them go by if they’re not a good fit for me. The idea that when I’m talking to someone about possibly working with them, that I’m okay letting this project go really puts me in a very comfortable spot in the conversation. Really, I hope that I’m helping them as well, right? To give them the option to go somewhere else and I’m happy to point them in a direction and hopefully, give them some ideas that will help. But to not have that feeling of, “I really need to chase this project because I need to land this one in order to make this happen.” That mindset has been very helpful and I guess I had that In me before I started. So even before I had a lot of clients coming in with this idea and having this idea that I was comfortable saying no helped a lot. Even when it was a little scary at times, overall, I think it’s been better.

Tara: So you came to that on your own, it wasn’t that you had a bad experience and you decided from then on, you would say, no? This was just a mentality that you’ve had based on this advice that you heard?

Sal: Sure. Working in an agency like that, I didn’t have control over the projects that we said ‘yes’ on or ‘no’ on. It sort of came up and came to us and it was time for the development team to make the rubber meet the road. And the team I worked with was great and they would rise to the occasion and make things happen. But as an individual, I get to say, “Okay, maybe this isn’t something that I want to tackle here.” Or if it is, “Yeah, this is going to take a bunch of time to really get up to speed on.” And then I’m comfortable putting a large price tag on this. And maybe you can go somewhere else and get it cheaper, and I’m fine with that conversation with a client. There may be somebody out there who’s really focused on this and does it all the time. “I’m happy to work with you but it’s going to take a little bit more. This is what we’re looking at.”

Liam: It’s a mindset of detachment, isn’t it?

Sal: I think that’s probably a good point. Yes. Being detached from it, not feeling that everything needs to be something that I’m digging into and grabbing onto.

Liam: Right. It’s holistic. At one point, yes, the money has to be there. But maybe for the right cause, the right organization, the right charity that you want to support, the money doesn’t have to be there. It’s a holistic thing. I want to be personally satisfied, professionaly satisfied, an engaging challenge, a realistic time table. What else is going on in our private lives at the time, are the children okay, is the family in a good spot? This kind of detachment of, “I’ll take that which is best.” Value all around enables you to not focus just on the money. I’m like, “Well, that would be a nice deck.” But it’s not the only consideration.

Tara: And having the frugality that you mentioned that you were raised with, too. I’m going to assume then that you have a good handle on what your financial situation is so you know you’re not desperate to take any dollar that comes your way, that you have a good handle on what your situation is. That gives you the confidence to be able to say ‘no’ or ‘yes’. I know when you’re starting out a business, at least for me, I didn’t say ‘no’ to anybody because I really needed that income. People have those decisions to make and depending on where you are in your financial lifetime, I guess it affects that.

Sal: Absolutely. And I’d love to say that I have it all figured out and everything, but certainly, when I was getting started, I had those projects that I did say yes to that really, in retrospect wasn’t smart, it wasn’t the best fit. Hopefully, I become better at this detachment over time.

Tara: Sure. It’s nice to get to that point in your business where you can do that.

Liam: I think it also takes time as a business or even the small businesses that we have, is you want to do development, I want to do design and marketing. Tara wants to make websites. But what does that mean? What kind of projects do I actually like and differentiates me from anybody else or my business from somebody else’s? Sometimes, it just takes some time of getting out there and it’s like, “Okay, we’ll take that project on.” You kind of get through it like, “Oh my gosh, we are never doing that project ever again.” Now, I know that’s not the kind of project I like. And after a period of time, we know that we have better ability to discern what’s a good fit and what isn’t, and then we can maintain that sense of detachment because we can discern it a little bit more clearly.

Tara: Identify red flags. We talk a lot about red flags that you learn how to spot now after dealing with a few tricky situations or tricky clients–

Liam: I think it’s also identifying green flags, right? Maybe there’s little red flags but that green flag is proportionally a lot bigger. So if we can address those in conversation around the red flags, “Hey, prospective client. Here’s some red flags, how do we want to deal with that?” To your point, communication and making sure everybody understands where we’re going.

Tara: What’s your favorite thing about what you do? I know you talk about the lightbulb moments and helping people. But in terms of your day to day, what’s your favorite thing to do?

Sal: Sure. My favorite thing to do– in my personal life, my favorite thing to do is family game nights. I have a large family in the area and I grew up with a lot of relatives, aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents. About once a month, we would get together and all sit around the table and play games, and eat snacks. It’s a great memory I have and I love it. It’s amazing now having those same events and watching how excited my boys get for those events and how much fun they are.

Liam: So you’re bringing cousins over and the like and just having a big old–?

Sal: Yes. Actually, my boys don’t have any cousins so most of the group is older, adults and things like that. But even when I was growing up, it was interesting, the numbers were certainly skewed towards adults rather than kids, which I felt was really valuable for me, actually. I really enjoyed interacting with adults like that and I think it helped me a lot in life and I think it’s great for my boys, for those family events and having them, and playing games I think is a great way to spend time together.

Tara: What’s your current favorite game?

Sal: My current favorite game is– right now, just recently, we started getting our boys into cooperative board games. There’s some great games out there that I’ve been introduced to where you play as a team, and hopefully, you win or lose as a team, which is really neat. There’s a great that our family got started with called Forbidden Island. And there’s a couple of different ones, Pandemic is the latest cooperative game that we’re playing like that, that I really enjoy. Often at family–

Tara: Sounds scary.

Sal: It’s a scary premise, yes, great game. Often with our family, we have larger groups who are all playing together. A game like that is maybe for four or five players. But with a larger group, often we play cards or something like that. Those are great games for when we have the whole crew.

Tara: Those are fun. We had Jeff Large on our podcast and he used to have a game, didn’t he used to have a game thing going on? Board games, he talked a lot about board games.

Liam: He had a whole wall of board games on the column behind him.

Tara: I think he had a website about board games or something, anyway it just reminds me this is our second game conversation on this show. That’s great, that says a lot about your kids and your family that they enjoy being in a room full of adults playing games that are not screens.

Sal: Well, they love their screens, too. But yes, it’s nice.

Tara: That’s good, thanks for sharing that. Very cool.

Liam: Sal, we’ve got a few minutes left here so I’m going to circle it back to the WordPress community. You talked a lot about the joy that you’re getting sharing with others. You’ve talked a lot about the joy that you get in presenting. You’ve talked about the different ways that you help. You and I have known each other probably since 2014 when you first started getting involved locally because I’m in suburban Philly as well and Reading, from a cosmic sense, is practically suburban Philly. It takes on different kinds of people in the WordPress community to make it move forward. For somebody that is new to a WordPress community, maybe WordCamp Philly this weekend is their first one. What would be a, “Hey, give this a try. Have a think about this. Welcome to the community.” And what would you share with them?

Sal: So sort of how you get started? When I think about that, I think local meetups are a great opportunity for that. And thank you for the Philly burbs one that you run. Indeed, that was one of the first-

Liam: That’s not where I was going but thank you. [laughter]

Sal: – events, yes, that I started getting into and meeting people. I also find that Twitter, for all the negative things that Twitter has. I really appreciate Twitter in connecting and letting me follow a lot of people in the WordPress community. It’s been a real gateway to learning who these people are and reading articles they write, and growing knowledge from them. That’s a great thing to do. And then one of the tail things that came out of that then is the opportunity to contribute back, particularly to plugins. People in the community will often put out things to help other people One of the little things that I think is a great way to help is when you’re reading articles by people that you enjoy and like, and you catch a typo, to shoot him a message and just give him a heads up on the typo. I’ve made connections with a number of people in the community just because I did that a bunch. And it’s important to phrase your typo very politely when you’re given a heads up, but it’s nice to send that message that says, “Hey, I’m really enjoying this. Just a heads up, I make plenty of typos myself. This phrase here, I think you have a typo in it.” And in that small way, you’re helping improve that article that other people in the community are reading. And then beyond that, if you contribute to the code on GitHub, if you can do a pull request and help them out with something. But that’s sort of next level. Yeah.

Liam: That’s a good answer. Thank you for sharing that.

Tara: Yeah, I think you made a correction on one of mine, once, as a matter of fact. [laughter] I appreciate it.

Sal: And look, now here I am, so thank you.

Tara: I’m still speaking to you. [laughter]

Sal: I am certain I make far more typos than I have ever pointed out to anyone. My typo count, I’m definitely in the lead.

Tara: Well, we’re all human. I think we are out of time, speaking human. Thanks for joining us today, Sal. Can you tell everyone where they can find you?

Sal: Thank you very much for having me, I am @salcode many places, including Salcode.com. On Twitter at @salcode, on GitHub at @salcode, @salcode. [laughs]

Tara: Alright.

Liam: Excellent, Sal. Thanks for joining us.

Tara: Thanks for joining us.

Sal: Thank you so much for having me.

Tara: Alright. Bye-bye.

Sal: Bye-bye.

Tara: If you like what we’re doing here – meeting new people in our WordPress community – we invite you to tell others about it. We’re on iTunes and at hallwaychats-staging.ulpgsyz6-liquidwebsites.com.

Liam: Better yet, ask your WordPress friends and colleagues to join us on the show. Encourage them to complete the “Be on the show” form on our site, to tell us about themselves.

Tara: If you like what we’re doing here – meeting new people in our WordPress community – we invite you to tell others about it. We’re on iTunes and at hallwaychats-staging.ulpgsyz6-liquidwebsites.com.

Liam: Better yet, ask your WordPress friends and colleagues to join us on the show. Encourage them to complete the “Be on the show” form on our site, to tell us about themselves.

Similar Posts

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *