Episode 98: Michelle Ames

Hallway Chats: Episode 98 - Michelle Ames

Introducing Michelle Ames

Michelle says she is an overextended, over-committed entrepreneur, author, blogger and social butterfly. As a WordPress fanatic, Michelle is the Head of Customer Success at GiveWP.

Show Notes

Twitter | @michelleames
Website | All The Things By Michelle
GiveWP | GiveWP.com

Episode Transcript

Tara: This is Hallway Chats, where we meet people who use WordPress.

Liam: We ask questions, and our guests share their stories, ideas, and perspectives.

Tara: And now the conversation begins. This is episode 98. Welcome to Hallway Chats. I’m Tara Claeys.

Liam: And I’m Liam Dempsey. Today we are joined by Michelle Ames. Michelle says she is an overextended, overcommitted entrepreneur, author, blogger and social butterfly. She’s an avid Scrabble player, a mother, a serial volunteer, a marketing enthusiast, and 11th hour expert. As a WordPress fanatic, Michelle is the Head of Customer Success at GiveWP. Welcome, Michelle.

Michelle: Thank you. It’s good to be here.

Tara: So glad to have you. And what litany of great things to chat with you about today. But I’ll let you start out by maybe telling us in a nutshell a little bit more about you.

Michelle: Sure. Well, as you can hear from my little intro there, I’m a very busy person, but I like to be busy. Busy is what keeps me going and gets me up every morning, and keeps me as an active part of society and WordPress and all the different parts that are in my life. They always say if you want something done, ask a busy person, which is why my list gets longer every single day.

Tara: Tell us a little bit about your background with WordPress and tech. How did you get started and how long have you been in WordPress?

Michelle: I was in higher education for 20 years. And while I was working at the University of Rochester, I worked on my MBA. It was the early 2000s and the e-commerce boom had just started. That’s what every single website was considered e-commerce – you might remember – and every single school suddenly had an e-commerce truck that you could do.

So I was working on my MBA with a concentration in information systems, marketing, and e-commerce. And by the time I graduated, the bottom had fallen out of the market, and suddenly websites were selling for $1.99, whereas before they were selling for $100 or $50. So suddenly, I was like, “Well, I guess I’m going to keep working in higher education for a while longer. And I did.

I was the director of a massage school for five years, and one of my best friends who was a graduate, she said, “I really want to start a nonprofit organization for massage therapist to help them continue their careers.” So we said to her husband who was a WordPress guy, “Hey, build us a website.” So he built us the shell of a website and then the next thing he said is, “Here are your logins, go ahead and put the content in yourself.”

So I remember logging in that very first day terrified that I would do something to break the internet. Not just my website, but the whole internet. And so, I very timidly started clicking links, and within about 10 minutes was like, “This is really cool.” And I became a WordPress fanatic I think right from that first day.

I had no idea though how to go from, “Hey, I bought a URL” to “Hey, I have a WordPress website.” So I said to her husband, I said, “Would you teach me how to do that?” They had five kids. They said, “If you come over and make dinner while she’s working, I will teach you how to build a website.” So I went over, I made a big spaghetti dinner for the kids, and afterwards, we sat down and he said, “Look, I could teach you this whole one button install a new-fangled thing that we do, but I want to show you how to set up a WordPress website.”

So I learned how to download the WordPress install. I learned how to upload it, how to change the salt keys, how to change the WP config files so that I had a really good understanding of what WordPress was and how it actually worked. By the end of that night, I had hosting, and I had my first website set up. That was about eight years ago. Since that time, I’ve built over a little over 300 websites total in those eight years. Some of them are one page, just landing pages but every single one counts. Every single one is a notch on my keyboard. And yeah, it’s been fun.

So for about six years, I started a freelance business doing marketing and web design. A little over a year ago I took a full-time job with Give, and so now I am the Head of Customer Success at Impress.org and doing what I do for our GiveWP customers and also our WP Business Review customers. And I’ve drunk the Kool-Aid.

Started WordCamp Rochester four years ago. I’ve spoken at think about to 16 or 17 WordCamps now, and I’ve got to keynotes coming up this year. I’m going to be keynoting at WordCamp Buffalo next week, and then WordCamp Kent in June. So I’m very excited.

Tara: Wow. Gosh, there’s so many things I want to talk to you about. What a wonderful story. I just love to hear how you made dinner and learn WordPress over spaghetti dinner trade. That’s awesome.

Michelle: That’s the trade I ever made.

[crosstalk 00:05:12]

Liam: …salad or Italian bread or anything? Was it just straight up pasta sauce, and that was it? I mean, I don’t minimize the value of that but just…

Tara: Were they jarred sauce or homemade?

Michelle: Oh, no, it was definitely jar sauce. And the oldest kid just said I was awesome. She actually named her hermit crab after me once upon a time. She was like, “Well, “I’ll make the salad if you want.” And I was like, “Well, if you insist.”

Liam: Well played, Michelle. Well played.

Michelle: I know how to bother.

Tara: You must be a very fast learner too because that sounds like you learned a lot in that first night.

Michelle: I actually wrote four notes. I had a whole notebook with me. I had step 1, 2, 3 and 4. When I got back to my house, and I was trying to recreate it, I was like, “Oh, man, that’s where YouTube and that’s where googling comes in because you’re never going to call the guy up and say, “Okay, what was step three again?” Kind of figure it out from there.

Tara: How wonderful. That was great. How did you know how to then transition that knowledge into running your own business and building 300 websites? Were they all mostly local word of mouth? How did that happen?

Michelle: Well, that’s a great question because I was at the point at the massage school where I felt like it was killing my soul, I didn’t appreciate the job I was working for, I wasn’t appreciated at the job and it was time to move on. I said to my husband at the time, “I really need to quit my job and I don’t have anything to go to. I know we have a small nest egg we could use right now, can I take the month off to look for a job and just kind of regroup from this five-year experience that I didn’t appreciate?” He said, “Let’s do it. We’ll find a way to make it through.”

I hadn’t even left that position yet, and I posted on Facebook, “Hey, I’m looking to transition to a new job, I don’t know what I’m doing, but in the meantime, if anybody needs help with marketing, or anybody needs a website, I’m your girl.” Within two weeks, I had so many customers, I actually had a business. So I was like, “Well, I’m not going to look for a job anymore. I’m just going to hang a shingle.

I named my business in a heartbeat, I created a website in about three hours, I developed my logo in about 20 minutes, all of which I wrote a book last year, all of which I said, “Don’t do it the way I did it because that was really foolish and it could have backfired at a million ways.” But it didn’t. And it worked really well. So I had a business going on six years.

When I decided to go fulltime, I thought, ” I’ll work full time and I’ll have all these customers on the side,” and very quickly thought “That’s not realistic for me.” So I was able to redirect customers to other great providers and continue to work on some of the things that I love, doing a lot of the volunteer type work that I do, and then really focus on growing this department for Give.

Tara: Wow. What were your hardest moments running your own business? Did you have difficult clients stories like you hear all the time? You must have learned a lot in six years. And did you have a support network or someone that you learned from as you went through running your own business to having a small agency or freelance business in this space? There are so many people that do it. We learn from each other. Talk a little bit about how that developed for you.

Michelle: The local WordPress meetup was phenomenal. The local WordPress meetup answered so many of those questions that you can’t afford necessarily to go pay thousands of dollars for a consultant to answer because you do have a little question here, a little question there. Our meetup is very active. We have a Facebook group. Literally, you post a question, and within 20 minutes, there’s four different peoples with four different solutions for you. And so they’re really, really helpful community. I try to pay back the community, pay for the community all those things that people have done for me, but have that active community.

Also, I joined a networking group, and that networking group really took my business from where it was at Level A all the way up to Level D, by that sharing who I was and telling people about me. And so within that first year of working in that networking group, I probably built 10 websites for 10 local businesses. But I also had people on Facebook recommending me to people outside the area. So I had customers all over North America. I built a website for an organization in the Philippines. I had customers in Puerto Rico. So it was fun building this whole organization and having all these customers sharing word of mouth that all sudden you get a phone call from like Indiana and you’re like, “How did you hear about me.” And they have an interesting story about how your business card ended up on their desk. Pretty exciting stuff.

Tara: Sure. For sure. Did you have a specialty – a special type of client or niche that you worked in?

Michelle: I didn’t actually. I took the stand that I could pretty much learn anything enough to build a site about it. So if somebody came to me, and they said, “I’m a massage therapist, can you build a site for me?” I would learn as much as I could about what you would need on a massage therapy site.

I actually had somebody come and say, “We’re commercial cleaners, and we’re in – I think they were in West Virginia – and we need a website.” And so, I read about 100 different websites on commercial cleaning to understand what kinds of things probably needed to be involved. So I considered myself kind of my niche really was that small business, as opposed to any particular kind of business, is helping those entrepreneurs take themselves from business cards to on the web.

My favorite stories though are those phone calls where you have to find your own value. Because I think when you’re starting out, and forgive me, Liam, but I think that a lot of women especially actually have this issue, where we undervalue our own skill sets, especially in the technology world, and we have to find our own chutzpah, and actually discover our own worth.

When I was first starting out, I would sell a website for $300 or $400, which wasn’t paying the bills, but it was making me feel…and you kind of convince yourself, “Oh, I’m building a portfolio.” How many $300 websites do you need in your portfolio is the question. So you get to the point where you get a phone call – and I had two phone calls the very same day, which I thought was a very interesting experience. The first phone call was a woman and she said, “A friend recommended you that you build websites? How much do you charge?” I hate when that’s the first question because it’s not an easy answer because it depends on what you need. Do you need five pages, or am I putting in a 200 item e-commerce site? There’s all these different opportunities.

I said, “Well, what do you need?” And she said, “Well, would you build a site with Wix?” And I said, “No, I don’t build with Wix.” I said, “I build a WordPress, that’s my area of expertise, but you can build your own website with Wix if that’s what you need.” And she said, “Well, what’s your absolute lowest price?” And I said, “Well, right now when I just build a basic website, “I charge $2000.” And I actually heard, “hhhm” on the other end of the phone. To her credit, she said, “You must be very good at what you do,” which I thought was a very wonderful way to come back to me. She said, “I just can’t afford that right now.”

So I gave her some advice on things that she could do, ways that she could start building through a Facebook page, for example, and other things she could do, and other ways that she could contact the community for people who are just starting out and might be able to help her along the way. She was very nice. She said, “Well, if I can afford you in a year, I’ll give you a callback and we’ll work together.” I said, “That’s wonderful. Please keep my number.”

Fast forward, about four hours, I get a phone call again. Somebody recommended me. I answer the phone and he starts using language that I have come to see as red flags – “just” and “only.” So when somebody calls you up and they say, “I just need a website for my band. It’s only three pages. I only need three pages.” And I said, “Well, what are the three pages?” “We need a “homepage,” a “contact us” and an “about us?”” I said you don’t want to page that talks about your upcoming gigs? “Oh, yeah, we should probably have one of those too.” I said, “How many members are in the band?” “Five?” “Well, does each person need a page for themselves?” “Well, yeah, but just that.”

I said, “We’re already up to nine pages.” He said, “How much it’s going to cost.” I said without any reservation, “My site starts at $2,000.” And he let out a few expletives, it was not family friendly, and said, “How do you get off charging that much?” I used the words from that morning, I said, “Well, I’m very good at what I do.”

Liam: I love that.

Michelle: He says, “We can’t afford that.” I said, “At some point, if you’re good enough, you come back and see me.”

Tara: That’s awesome. I hope that line worked on some people that they actually hired you as well. I would imagine so.

Michelle: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Liam: So can I ask, on the calls that you took the previous day, did you say 300?

Michelle: I did not. It takes a while to build up to that point. My very first site, and I have talked about this in some WordPress talks before. So if you see me on WordPress TV, you might hear this. My very first site, sitting at a desk that’s not even completely built yet, and a little chippy [SP], because the right-hand side doesn’t have all the legs up, I take a call and this woman says, “I need a site just like this other site that I know you manage. They recommended me.” I said, “That’s great.” And I’m thinking all I have to do is clone the site, use the same templates, etc., $300. Well, it needs to have e-commerce so I’m going to be selling some things. Now in my brain, I’m thinking, “Well, how long can that take?” I’m like, “Hhhm, $500.” She wrote that check so fast, that should have been my first…

Liam: That should have been a sign, right?

Michelle: That should have been the first time that I might be underpricing myself. I probably worked 100 hours on that site for $500. But I will tell you what, what I didn’t get paid in cash, I considered my payment for my own education in this business. I learned so much building that site. I won’t even tell you the site name because it still exists, and it looks like my first site. It looks like oh, did somebody learn how to build a site on this one? But I learned so much building that website.

So the next site I built, I said $1,000 and I was terrified. My knees were shaking under the table like somebody ‘s getting an imposter syndrome, somebody’s going to say, “It’s not worth that.” And they said, “Okay, who do I make the check out to?” And I was like, “Oh, hhh.” And within two years, I was charging 2000 and more for those websites.

So it really does come down to valuing yourself and also valuing the money that you put into your own business. I’m not using free themes, and I’m not using all free plugins. I’m paying for those services that make good websites and paying for the form builders that I like, I’m paying for the themes that I appreciate, I’m paying for those other plugins, and I need to value that. I’m paying for hosting if I’m hosting this person’s website. And so I need to value not only my time, and my skill set, but also the amount of money that I’ve put into building the business.

Liam: That’s a big part of the equation there. Michelle, you’ve talked us through the growth and success of your own business. And that’s some of the times painful growth and sometimes fun and sometimes a little payback, when you can say, “I’m good at my job.”

Michelle: That’s right.

Liam: But I want to ask you question about success.

Michelle: Sure.

Liam: The question is, how do you define success? What is your definition of success? And it can be a personal definition a professional definition or maybe for you, it’s a combination of both?

Michelle: It’s a good question because I think as we age that answer changes a little bit. When you’re in your 20s success is, “Oh, my gosh, I got hired and I’m making enough money to buy a car.” And your success might be based on money or it might be based on that your name those in the newspaper, or hanging out a shingle outside the door.

As I’ve gotten older, I’ve come to realize that for me, success is happiness in what I do, the ability to share that with other people. So whether it’s my skills, or my time, or my whatever I’m investing, and then also to be able to pay the bills at the same time and perhaps have a little bit of leftover at the end of the day to do something fun. But it really comes down to that. I don’t want to you know, be the cat’s in the cradle on my deathbed, and everybody says, “Well, you were never there for me. You spend it all on toys, but you never actually use them.” I want to know that when I hit that last day, whether it’s tomorrow or 50 years from now that I can say, “I’ve lived a good life, I had a lot of fun and I helped people along the way.”

Liam: That’s a holistic approach. And it sounds like it’s one that’s been based on life experience.

Michelle: Absolutely.

Liam: If you had to pick one, because I wrote down four things, you said, “Happiness in what I do, sharing skills, knowledge in some way with others, of course, paying bills, and then maybe a little extra for something fun.” Appreciative of that, depending on the day and immediate situation that you find yourself in any one of those four is going to float to the top. But in your heart of hearts, what’s the real focus for you?

Michelle: It’s the happiness It absolutely is. I was a single mom for years and trying to make ends meet with a daughter who’s now 27. But during those years while I was raising a child and going to school for my MBA, and doing all these other things, my goal was always provide for her, but make sure she was happy. And I discovered that in providing for her making sure she was happy, I was happy too.

So I think that if using those other things that I said, after that happiness part, doing those other things bubble up to make me a happy person. So as long as I’m keeping all of the legs on the floor, the three-legged stool kind of approach, those are the three-legged stool, and over the top of that is the happiness.

Liam: I get that. I really liked that caring for your daughter, providing for not just her physical needs, but I’ll say her emotional well-being and all the other kinds of well-being really brought you happiness is absolutely lovely. I love that sense of service to others is a way to bring fulfillment for our own lives.

Michelle: I thought she’d be a WordPress kid; she wants nothing to do with it.

Liam: Did she go Drupal?

Michelle: She doesn’t do web design at all. What she took from me wasn’t necessarily the actual tools that I use. What she does is she does a lot of what I did but in different areas. So for example, she is the vice president of the African-American Resource Group for M&T Bank in Buffalo, and she enjoys giving back to the community through those kinds of things. The apple doesn’t fall far, just doesn’t use the same tools that mom did.

Tara: And that’s okay. I think a lot of times our kids do take those values and things but they don’t want to look like us or talk like us.

Michelle: And that’s fine. She’s her own person. I love it.

Tara: That’s right.

Michelle: Love it.

Tara: I’d like to ask you about Give and your transition from working solo to working for a company. I’m quite familiar with Give. I’ve been among their first users and fans of that plugin and what you all offer for not just for web developers, but for our clients. Talk a little bit about it, because you have this volunteer spirit as well, your decision to work with Give, had you been using the plugin beforehand, and what that’s meant for your life and your definition of success and happiness.

Michelle: Thank you. I actually first heard about give when I was speaking at WordCamp Pittsburgh a few years back. A year later, I was speaking at WordCamp, Ottawa, and Jason Knill from Give was there and Bridget who used to work at Give was there as well. And I said to them, “I’ve used your plugin on a couple of different websites after having learned about it in Pittsburgh. As a matter of fact, one of the sites I’ve used it on is a nonprofit that raises money to feed children in South Sudan.

So they said, “Hey, can we interview you and do a blog post about that website that you did. So the day two of the event, I sat down and I talked to them. I was talking about how exciting the website was, and they liked the website, and the photos were awesome that they were able to give us to use on the website. At the end of that, I said to Jason, I said, “You know, yours is probably one of the only companies I consider shutting down my shop for, to go to work for. If you ever have an opening at Give, please let me know.” Within three months, I was talking to them about opening up the customer success department, and by January 1, I was an employee of Give.

Tara: Wow.

Michelle: It was like manifesting or something. It was Kismet. It was karma. It was whatever it was to make it happen. Just a little over a year ago, a year and a quarter ago, I started my first day, logged into the Slack channel and met everybody because we are a distributed company with a pocket of people in San Diego. And then we just opened an office in Rochester, New York this week, actually.

I actually have hired some employees here in Rochester, and so I have a customer success team now that we’re building here. I talk to people all over the world that worked for the company, and I talk to people all over the world who are customers. And what Customer Success does is we’re not tech support, but if you purchase Give for the first time one of us is going to call you within a couple of days and say, “Hey, welcome to the family. Do you have any questions?”

I just actually met online with a woman this afternoon before I talked to you all in Glasgow, Scotland. She was setting up her first Give forms, she was hesitant and nervous about how to do the payment gateways, etc, and we did a screen share. So, she showed me her screen, I walked her through the process, I spent 20 minutes with her. At the end, she felt very confident and how to use it, how to set up the forms that she needs to use in Give. She thanked me, we signed off. She probably went to bed because I think they’re about five hours ahead of us. And now she’s all ready and set to collect money for an organization that does amazing things over there.

Earlier this morning, I talked to a woman who has an organization where they have horseback riding for children who have chronic and failed illnesses so they’re making the world a better place by being able to bring happiness to those children. So I feel like I’ve always volunteered, I’ve always been part of these bigger organizations. Now I get to do that on a global level, by helping all those organizations raise money to make the world a better place. And honestly, nothing makes me happier. At the end of the day, I go to bed, I wake up the next morning ready to get up and go to work because I love it so much.

Tara: That sounds wonderful. And you’re not really working with clients anymore. You have seen a steady paycheck and you can clock in and clock out. You’re not working at 11 o’clock to deploy a site and answering an urgent email from someone whose website is down and that type of thing.

Michelle: I don’t miss that part.

Tara: The lifestyle changed for you. Do you miss actually building websites?

Michelle: I still do a little bit of that on the side, but mostly for nonprofit organizations in my area that I can help do that. I run a hackathon once a year here in Rochester. I help support those organizations. I’ve recently branched out on my own doing consulting and job and career counseling. So I’ve been doing a lot of coaching with people and working one-on-one for them to bring their web businesses and growing their web businesses. So I’m really enjoying that aspect of it too.

Tara: How many hours are in your day? Mine is still 24. I don’t know. It sounds like you have a few more than that.

Michelle: Well, my daughter is grown and gone, I have three cats and me, so if I don’t just want to sit and watch TV at night, I find other things to do.

Tara: Excellent. I am envious of that good feeling you must get all the time. I love working with clients who do good in the world. And I know Liam works with several as well. It’s a great feeling to participate in a good cause for sure.

Michelle: It really is. Absolutely.

Liam: So I want to ask you about advice. It’s one of our signature questions here. And it’s not so much the advice that you might give, but rather the advice that you’ve received or read or stumbled upon at some point in your travels. So what’s the best bit of advice that you were ever given or received and successfully implemented into your life?

Michelle: I have three things: one, two, and three. The first thing is that the janitor and the plumber and the person who’s sweeping the sidewalk are just as important as the president and CEO. So learn their names, know who they are. That’s been truly helpful my entire life is to just treat everybody the same and know who people are in my organization so that if I have a problem anywhere and can appreciate everybody in the organization.

The second one is, never pass up an opportunity to charge my cell phone because you never know how long the battery’s going to last when you might need it. Similarly, the third one is, never pass up an opportunity to use the restroom, is you may never know how long it is to get to the next one.

Tara: Those last two are key. I follow those pretty closely myself, actually. I’m pretty connected to my cell phone and it dying is just sadly terrifying thought.

Michelle: Exactly.

Liam: Can I add one more to the list?

Michelle: Yeah.

Liam: Never turned down coffee.

Michelle: Oh, that’s a good one, too. Or a glass of wine. I don’t know how you feel about that, but a glass of wine is always on the list at the end of the day.

Tara: That’s excellent advice.

Michelle: Absolutely. Sounds like you have a very full schedule. I just love what I do so I try to make every minute count.

Tara: The community that you have in Rochester also sounds like it’s a very close-knit WordPress community. Can you tell us a little bit about that? You said the meetup was really helpful to you as you grew, and it sounds like you’re really involved in it.

Michelle: To me, the key thing about a really tight-knit community is how those people treat each other and how they pull other people into the fold. We could all be considering ourselves competitors for the most part, even if it’s somebody who’s building their own WordPress website for their business, but instead, everybody embraces one another, helps each other and wants to see everybody else in the community succeed.

Last year, I was moving out of my home into an apartment by myself. I posted on Facebook that on that Tuesday if anybody had the ability to help me move, to show up at my address, with cars and whatever they could fit in at five o’clock. I thought maybe two or three people would show up to help me. Fifteen people came, and ten of those were only people that I knew only through WordPress. So the WordPress community, some of them drove an hour to help me move and I was only moving it out a mile across town, but it was something I couldn’t do for myself.

So when I think about the fact that my brother, two or three high school friends and ten people from the WordPress community showed up with vans, helped me finish packing and helped me move into my new apartment. And when we got there, two of them realized I didn’t have sheets that fit on the bed, I didn’t have a shower curtain, they went to the store in town without me even knowing and came back and hung a shower curtain and put sheets on my bed before the end of the day. So I have some place to lay my head down at night.

Tara: Wow.

Michelle: That’s what WordPress is to me. And that’s why I feel it’s a pay it forward, pay it back kind of tight-knit community. The title of my keynote address coming up is “The Care and Feeding of the WordPress Community: Me, You, & Us,” and how we can help keep ourselves healthy, how we hold each other accountable for our own mental health and physical health, and how we can help maintain the health of the WordPress community in general. That’s all from experience and that’s all from what people have taught and showed me their love and just showered blessings on me in the eight or so years that I’ve been part of the WordPress community.

Tara: I have to admit my eyes are tearing up a little bit, and not to be super sappy about it…

Michelle: I get tearful too.

Tara: One of my favorite movies is “It’s a Wonderful Life.” But just the idea of your community rallying for you is I think just something everybody craves and would like to have. It says a lot about the community, but it says a lot about you, that you’ve cultivated these relationships, and I’m sure done things for people and it’s coming back around for you. So thank you for sharing that and so many really wonderful stories. It’s been such a great time talking to you and you’ve got so much energy. You’ve inspired me. I’ve really enjoyed this chat, and I’m really sorry that we are down to the final seconds.

Michelle: Me too. Where can people find you online, Michelle?

Michelle: They can find me at allthethingsbymichelle.com, and they can find me on Twitter at @michelleames. So thank you so much for having me as a guest today. It’s been wonderful to share stories with you and to know more about you as well.

Tara: Thanks. I hope to meet you in person.

Michelle: I can’t wait for it.

Liam: Thanks, Michelle. This was an absolute joy. Thank you for sharing so candidly.

Michelle: Thank you.

Liam: See you soon.

Michelle: Take care.

Tara: Bye.

Michelle: Bye-bye.

Liam: Thanks for listening to the show. We sure hope you enjoyed it as much as we did.

Tara: If you like what we’re doing here – meeting new people in our WordPress community – we invite you to tell others about it. We’re on iTunes and at hallwaychats-staging.ulpgsyz6-liquidwebsites.com.

Liam: Better yet, ask your WordPress friends and colleagues to join us on the show. Encourage them to complete the “Be on the show” form on our site, to tell us about themselves.

Liam: Thanks for listening to the show. We sure hope you enjoyed it as much as we did.

Tara: If you like what we’re doing here – meeting new people in our WordPress community – we invite you to tell others about it. We’re on iTunes and at hallwaychats-staging.ulpgsyz6-liquidwebsites.com.

Liam: Better yet, ask your WordPress friends and colleagues to join us on the show. Encourage them to complete the “Be on the show” form on our site, to tell us about themselves.

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